Who thought adding Frozen to Duelist was a good idea

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Senna
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Who thought adding Frozen to Duelist was a good idea

Post by Senna » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:51 pm

I never thought I'd have to make a post for the duelist update this soon. It's messed up because it's also one of my favorite class. This won't be as long as the other post (I'm bullshitting on the length) I've made so here we go.

It's about the new Crystal Rose -

WHO THOUGHT GIVING A CLASS THAT BUILDS SKILL (Skill that increase status inflict), A REALLY POWERFUL STATUS AS A MOVE THAT CAN SPAM A GOOD IDEA?! I've seen people on the OOC talking about '20 level frozen isn't that bad' but if this person uses it correctly, you dead-ass can't move or do anything. It's a complete lock-down status effect. What makes it powerful is this; you lose the ability to move, use movement skills (Besides Blink, Void gates and so on) and your evade drops to 0 for X turn or until someone attacks you with enough damage to remove it. So if you're not a tank or have range attacks, you're screwed.

Now, why is it so strong for duelist? Because there is little way to punish or counter it if you're not built for range, magic and so on. How can it really be that bad, it's only '20 level frozen.' Simple, they use CR at the end of the turn, if you're slower than them, and you lack range attack or a teleport move that allows you to move even frozen, you're nothing short of a sitting duck. And if you're faster than them, you better of CR too else the lock chain begins. At best, all you could do is buff yourself up and wait. All they have to do is buff up or nerf you down, attack you once, which is more likely a guarantee hit thanks to 0 evade, get a lot of damage from it and use CR and prevent them from fighting back. (Hit and run)

I know the excuse everyone is going to say, 'Build Status resistance' but do bear in mind, San is the only stats that increase status resistance and unless you're certain races that can make do of it, that stats can be completely useless for most build (The fact you have to build a decent amount to counteract people with like 140-160 stats inf thanks to already having to build skill). It's not like poison, or burn or blind and so on, whereas you can still take chances or risk, it's a complete safe status effect that can prevent risk.

It needs balancing, the fact that it's also AOE. Ranger has a skill that can apply frozen however it's single target, takes 6 momentum in total, 2-3 turns cool-down, unable to use other advantage skill effects from the archery magic and can be silences; for frozen that's level 250....Comparing to CR that's a skill, can't be stopped, AOE, uses little FP, can be used more than once a turn and last for 2-3 turns if the person decides to NOT touch you.

And if that person build Kensei/Hexer, that's GG at that point; you'll be unable to do anything against them whatsoever if they're know what they're doing. So, suggestions? I have like three, one I kinda was thinking about and the other two I'm alright with but wouldn't suggest.

The first suggestion: Have Crystal Rose not use actual status infliction and use percent chance, (Like 8*rank) or something. So at the very least, people still have a fighting chance without getting themselves perma movement lock.

The second suggestion: A Frozen immunity TO CR for 3-4 turns after getting hit with the a CR frozen status. So people don't spam it and completely lock down someone's movements.

The third suggestion: This one I don't like but it's still there, add a cool-down to Crystal rose. I don't like the suggestion itself since that technique is only of the only few range skill duelist has.

I'd like to see what you guys think about it.

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ValkyrieSkies
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Re: Who thought adding Frozen to Duelist was a good idea

Post by ValkyrieSkies » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:49 pm

Almost all of OOC chat told dev this was one of his worst ideas yet and he refused to listen. Duelist is already the strongest base class in the game and these further buffs its received are just getting excessive.

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Re: Who thought adding Frozen to Duelist was a good idea

Post by Snake » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:33 pm

All these flavors and you chose to be salty. Wew.

Anyway. I suggest Frozen to be moved to Kraken-only, that's literally it. Basic Crystal Rose can inflict something like Celsius LV(Rank) instead, so enemies are kept at bay, and not kite you.

The reasons are quite simple:

- Basic Crystal Rose has no drawbacks so it cannot have Frozen attributed to it.
- Kraken Crystal Rose does, as it requires either a Badge or the Enchant, which both limits the amount of class combos and gives a solid elemental weakness that can be exploited, as a drawback, thus, making it fine to have something more than just 'ice tiles' on the ice elemental impact.
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Re: Who thought adding Frozen to Duelist was a good idea

Post by Spoops » Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:23 pm

This is a huge vat of duelist salt, hooh, alright I'm just gonna side with Snake here, at least if its limited solely to Kraken then you incur an elemental weakness for having a form of CC.

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Re: Who thought adding Frozen to Duelist was a good idea

Post by Fern » Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:36 pm

Could make the Frozen come from Freezing Crystal Rose.

Normal one can get Celsius. Agreed.
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Re: Who thought adding Frozen to Duelist was a good idea

Post by PantherPrincess » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:04 pm

It's not really a salt thread when almost more than half the server agreed that they didn't want to see frozen get added to crystal rose. I warned Dev myself when he was talking about it and yet... here we are. It is quite frankly that bad and it isn't needed on a class that already excels in momentum building and has no issues with movement and reach. Locking someone in place only to pull off a high powered voltiger is just extra cheese at this point and unnecessary. Duelist didn't need a buff that badly yet alone something to this capacity where now you are FORCED to take the hit and inflicting it is hardly an issue for them. Remove frozen status from regular crystal rose and make it only work with Kraken the enchant not to be confused for mercury badge. I stated this in ooc and iirc Spo you disagreed and insisted it be kept for regular crystal rose. This will force people to use the enchant only just like how some Monks use Galren for KD. I had a big feeling this was going to happen and I was right. It is far too easy to utilize and get as it stands.
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Re: Who thought adding Frozen to Duelist was a good idea

Post by Akame » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:58 pm

I'd say limit frozen to Kraken, and only if it's the enchant spell, not the badge. Similarly how quaking heaven's kick only knocks down if you're enchanted with the spell.
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Re: Who thought adding Frozen to Duelist was a good idea

Post by Neus » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:49 pm

I seem to recall the OOC chats differently, but honestly, it doesn't matter who said what or who was right. Pointless information like that doesn't have any bearing on balance changes and does just make it look like a salt thread.

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Re: Who thought adding Frozen to Duelist was a good idea

Post by Kameron8 » Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:15 am

Crystal Rose is used in its current iteration almost exclusively for Cinder tiles or for Swift Lightning crits. There's some use for the other elements, but none are realistically as powerful as those two, when builds begin to take more optimal shapes.

My issue with the change is that the only caveat to freeze is a status infliction chance. Duelists will universally have Skill, so even if they don't pack high Will, their infliction will be decent at worst. This in turn means they will always succeed infliction against races who are actively harmed by building Sanctity (Corrupted), or against builds that can't slot Sanctity without sacrificing something far more important (usually other Duelists).

This in turn leads to one of two strategies, depending on how much of a damage threat your opponent poses:
  1. End your turn by creating distance via sidecut, repel, Winged Serpent, Bash, or whatever other tools are at your disposal, then freeze your enemy out of range. The skill will still deal at least half as much as a normal attack. Chances are Freeze will either mean nothing to them, or hard counter them entirely. This all boils down to whether or not the person in question has ranged threats or unaffected movement options. Polarizing circumstances like this are never fun.
  2. Start your turn by freezing someone who built evasion, but not defensive stats. Chances are this will proc Evasion and/or Eviter, as dodge builds are almost exclusively relegated to playing Kensei. Follow up with a critical strike that pummels their health bar, then spend the remaining momentum buffing or running. Continue to freeze them over and over and over again, and never attempt to make a hit check that can otherwise be guaranteed.
The fact that the ability itself does respectable damage only adds onto this issue. Failing an infliction chance doesn't actively hinder you, as you've done a good chunk of ranged damage and can try again at your leisure. I would personally suggest one of two things, based on the gripes I listed above.

First, make the freeze only compatible with Kraken, in the same capacity that Quaking Heaven Kick is compatible with Galren. Badges do not qualify for this.

Or,

Second, make successfully freezing someone trigger some form of cooldown, as per Sogensara's potential.

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Re: Who thought adding Frozen to Duelist was a good idea

Post by Spoops » Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:23 am

Frozen immunity sounds like a solid mechanic in of itself on most sources of frozen, considering its an intensely more powerful version of immobilize, which has been known to be a problem in the past.

It might be on the same tier as Knockdown and Stun.

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