Old Cellsvich

Have an idea for the game? Something you'd like to see improved? This is where you should post it.
User avatar
Spoops
Posted to Death
Posted to Death
Posts: 2969
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:25 am
Location: Somewhere

Re: Old Cellsvich

Post by Spoops » Thu May 21, 2020 12:38 am

As I stated before, I don't see much of an issue anymore if its just another town, but it doesn't exactly seem hard to replicate the specific shape of old Cellsvich either is the point I'm trying to make here.
Image

User avatar
Blissey
Social Poster
Social Poster
Posts: 389
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 6:35 pm

Re: Old Cellsvich

Post by Blissey » Thu May 21, 2020 2:28 am

Spoops wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 12:38 am
As I stated before, I don't see much of an issue anymore if its just another town, but it doesn't exactly seem hard to replicate the specific shape of old Cellsvich either is the point I'm trying to make here.
The actual SL2 mapping environment is daunting for many people to use. It's not exactly very well organized and it's not usually obvious where things are. Even things you'd think would be under a certain tree isn't actually there, or what IS there looks like it and may function like it, but has another purpose within Dev's code. I don't think this is Dev's fault but how BYOND works, so remapping it from scratch would be a tall task even for the most experienced of mappers. With what is already generated and provided on Cellsvich's old map, whoever wishes to remap it will have a much easier time finding pieces they need.

I'm pretty sure with several tweaks here and there and a design shift, it won't look enough like old Cellsvich to make people have a sense of deja vu.
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
^Mercala's Favorite Apparently

User avatar
MakeshiftWalrus
GM
GM
Posts: 268
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 6:53 pm

Re: Old Cellsvich

Post by MakeshiftWalrus » Thu May 21, 2020 4:29 am

I'm not sure what kind of tweaks people are thinking of that wouldn't require a complete overhaul of the map if the intention is to not have a blatant copy/paste of old Cellsvich.

I for one am not a fan of the idea of simply porting in the old map, even if it gets a re-skin. It's a lazy solution, and we'd be better off designing something from scratch.

Old Cellsvich looks pretty bad anyway, it's just a box with buildings randomly strewn around. You can easily re-create the entire map in a house using tiles from your building tool, I've done it before.

User avatar
WaifuApple
Social Poster
Social Poster
Posts: 360
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:57 pm
Location: The Void, Somewhere.

Re: Old Cellsvich

Post by WaifuApple » Thu May 21, 2020 5:17 am

It can use a little bit of a facelift to make it look better visually, but it's not impossible to make into a good map without having to completely remake the thing, and I wouldn't call using it again in some form lazy either. Resources that already exist can be improved and reused, and there shouldn't be any problem with that.

Making it in a house would look even worse, too, as a comparison. There are just some things you can't do in there. And you certainly couldn't make a visually improved version into one, if as expected someone aims to tweak this.

Besides, I don't see anything being designed from scratch for a long while. Who knows, a more accessible project that doesn't require starting from the beginning might draw some potential attention from people who otherwise wouldn't have touched the map maker. To that end, it could even be a good opportunity to get some new budding mapper volunteers for the game.

...Heck, this is starting to sound like it'd make a good mapping contest. Perhaps a thought for some day.
I have nothing useful to contribute to this signature.

User avatar
Mr.SmileGod
Novice Member
Novice Member
Posts: 34
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:07 pm

Re: Old Cellsvich

Post by Mr.SmileGod » Thu May 21, 2020 6:51 am

Having a callback to old Cellsvich would definitely scratch my nostalgia itch. Maybe make it into, uh. Belleaux or whatever it's called, the boxing town near the arena. Change the mage's guild building into a boxing cage, fun times.

Or, literally any town. I'd be happy with this happening, definitely.
Image

User avatar
Snake
Posted to Death
Posted to Death
Posts: 2639
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2015 10:14 pm
Location: Motherbase - Main Office

Re: Old Cellsvich

Post by Snake » Thu May 21, 2020 3:53 pm

Doraington is the best bet.
"Show me what you've got, Snake!"
Image
Image ~ Dev, 08/16/2016.

User avatar
Miller
Talkative Poster
Talkative Poster
Posts: 252
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 6:34 pm
Location: Animu smirk

Re: Old Cellsvich

Post by Miller » Thu May 21, 2020 5:43 pm

MakeshiftWalrus wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 4:29 am
I'm not sure what kind of tweaks people are thinking of that wouldn't require a complete overhaul of the map if the intention is to not have a blatant copy/paste of old Cellsvich.

I for one am not a fan of the idea of simply porting in the old map, even if it gets a re-skin. It's a lazy solution, and we'd be better off designing something from scratch.

Old Cellsvich looks pretty bad anyway, it's just a box with buildings randomly strewn around. You can easily re-create the entire map in a house using tiles from your building tool, I've done it before.
The map editor within game is much much easier to use than the one presented in the mapping environment. Refer to Blissey's post if you want to understand a fraction of the reason why. Dream Maker is incredibly annoying and frustrating to work with; coupled with not knowing what everything does in actuality.

It being 'lazy' is redundant, this is a request precisely because it is less work for something that can easily provide more roleplay options to the world. Not to mention, not all of the tiles presented in the old map are in the in-game's building system.

If you don't like it, that's entirely fair though. It's not the most appealing map in the world sure, but I adore it personally precisely because it was compact and also has an easily accessible gathering location.

User avatar
MakeshiftWalrus
GM
GM
Posts: 268
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 6:53 pm

Re: Old Cellsvich

Post by MakeshiftWalrus » Fri May 22, 2020 6:09 am

Miller wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 5:43 pm
MakeshiftWalrus wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 4:29 am
I'm not sure what kind of tweaks people are thinking of that wouldn't require a complete overhaul of the map if the intention is to not have a blatant copy/paste of old Cellsvich.

I for one am not a fan of the idea of simply porting in the old map, even if it gets a re-skin. It's a lazy solution, and we'd be better off designing something from scratch.

Old Cellsvich looks pretty bad anyway, it's just a box with buildings randomly strewn around. You can easily re-create the entire map in a house using tiles from your building tool, I've done it before.
The map editor within game is much much easier to use than the one presented in the mapping environment. Refer to Blissey's post if you want to understand a fraction of the reason why. Dream Maker is incredibly annoying and frustrating to work with; coupled with not knowing what everything does in actuality.

It being 'lazy' is redundant, this is a request precisely because it is less work for something that can easily provide more roleplay options to the world. Not to mention, not all of the tiles presented in the old map are in the in-game's building system.

If you don't like it, that's entirely fair though. It's not the most appealing map in the world sure, but I adore it personally precisely because it was compact and also has an easily accessible gathering location.
I've worked with it before, and while it's obnoxious to use, it's not so obnoxious you couldn't take an hour to sit down, and get to understand it. Something you would need to do, if you wanted to do anything beyond slapping in the same map again.

The most important thing to consider when mapping is time, because it isn't difficult to create the actual map itself, it's difficult to know where all the tiles you need are located within it, and so the clock becomes your worst enemy. A lack of effort is exactly why I don't think it should just be ported, and I don't personally feel nostalgia is a good enough excuse to add sub-par quality to the game.

If people want to use the same type of layout for a different map? Sure. That might actually be interesting. But to just throw in old Cellsvich after this long? No, I can't agree with that.

User avatar
Blissey
Social Poster
Social Poster
Posts: 389
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 6:35 pm

Re: Old Cellsvich

Post by Blissey » Fri May 22, 2020 11:56 am

MakeshiftWalrus wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 6:09 am
Miller wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 5:43 pm
MakeshiftWalrus wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 4:29 am
I'm not sure what kind of tweaks people are thinking of that wouldn't require a complete overhaul of the map if the intention is to not have a blatant copy/paste of old Cellsvich.

I for one am not a fan of the idea of simply porting in the old map, even if it gets a re-skin. It's a lazy solution, and we'd be better off designing something from scratch.

Old Cellsvich looks pretty bad anyway, it's just a box with buildings randomly strewn around. You can easily re-create the entire map in a house using tiles from your building tool, I've done it before.
The map editor within game is much much easier to use than the one presented in the mapping environment. Refer to Blissey's post if you want to understand a fraction of the reason why. Dream Maker is incredibly annoying and frustrating to work with; coupled with not knowing what everything does in actuality.

It being 'lazy' is redundant, this is a request precisely because it is less work for something that can easily provide more roleplay options to the world. Not to mention, not all of the tiles presented in the old map are in the in-game's building system.

If you don't like it, that's entirely fair though. It's not the most appealing map in the world sure, but I adore it personally precisely because it was compact and also has an easily accessible gathering location.
I've worked with it before, and while it's obnoxious to use, it's not so obnoxious you couldn't take an hour to sit down, and get to understand it. Something you would need to do, if you wanted to do anything beyond slapping in the same map again.

The most important thing to consider when mapping is time, because it isn't difficult to create the actual map itself, it's difficult to know where all the tiles you need are located within it, and so the clock becomes your worst enemy. A lack of effort is exactly why I don't think it should just be ported, and I don't personally feel nostalgia is a good enough excuse to add sub-par quality to the game.

If people want to use the same type of layout for a different map? Sure. That might actually be interesting. But to just throw in old Cellsvich after this long? No, I can't agree with that.
No one wants to throw old Cellsvich in. The purpose of porting the old map back in is to: remap it and use the tilesets in it as an ease of access point* to redesign and map a new map for the game. No one wants an old Cellsvich copy in the actual game, that would be very strange and unsettling (unless Dev wanted to go for that... Mallus...).

Also, using the actual map editor (as in, the tools you need to actually lay down tiles, copy tiles, and map out the map) isn't the annoying part. To your point, you mentioned that it takes a while to figure out where everything you need is. Here's the thing: it shouldn't be like that. Mapping should be easier. Why do you think Dev himself is so averse to it? I highly doubt he intentionally made things hard to find, otherwise he'd never try to map anything.

I'll reiterate: no one wants old Cellsvich back.** No one wants a carbon copy of old Cellsvich. Perhaps similarities due to the tileset, but it shouldn't take months to craft a whole new map unless you're making the custom tilesets along with it. I can understand why you'd be against this if the purpose was to just shove the old Cellsvich back in and not change it enough to be different or at all, but that's not the case, nor will it ever be allowed.

All submissions have to go through Dev, and if he feels that having the map used as a basis for making a new town is too lazy or that not enough work went in to make the old Cellsvich map into a new map, then he can ultimately veto it. No harm will come of people trying to use the old Cellsvich map for ease of access.

*Ease of access point: by this I mean to use the old Cellsvich map as a means to separate all available tilesets generated in the map, and then quickly copy and or activate the tiles so that you don't have to go through the actual categories/mapping tree to find the tileset you need. This would mean that you'd have to expand the map in the file and then map a whole new map on the other side of the editor in that same loaded environment, or you could just use the actual tiles generated as a point of quick reference to find the set you need in a whole new environment using the SL2 mapping environment tool. It sounds complicated, but trust me, it's not -- it'd make mapping out villages/towns easier since we can quickly find out where things are without treasure hunting. Old Cellsvich fortunately has most of the tiles you'd need to make an appealing modern-for-the-time-period or just regular town.

**Disclaimer: Some people want old Cellsvich back. It's never coming back. Let it die, but also, please give us the old map so we can use the cool tilesets more readily to make even cooler maps. Thanks.
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
^Mercala's Favorite Apparently

User avatar
MakeshiftWalrus
GM
GM
Posts: 268
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 6:53 pm

Re: Old Cellsvich

Post by MakeshiftWalrus » Fri May 22, 2020 6:09 pm

Blissey wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 11:56 am
MakeshiftWalrus wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 6:09 am
Miller wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 5:43 pm
-Snip-
The point of the thread was to get some kind of redux-version of the old Cellsvich map, to which I simply disagree. It would need to be so heavily modified it would practically be an entirely new entity, but the impression I got from what everyone else was writing, was that it would at best receive a new coat of paint.

A more organized mapping tool would be fantastic to work with, but that was never the intended purpose of this thread. I would love to see it organized in a manner that made it easier to use, and I firmly believe we'd see far more map submissions if it was. Though, I would argue that if you wanted to make a city-map, new Cellsvich would be the vastly superior map-set to use.

It sports almost all of the same tiles, in addition to many, many more things like stairs, rails, building facades, signs, trees, and the list goes on. At the same time, I don't believe the tile-set to be so complex you couldn't find anything in it, either.

Post Reply