Elimi-nahmate [Eliminate is too fatal to use]

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Snake
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Elimi-nahmate [Eliminate is too fatal to use]

Post by Snake » Thu May 21, 2020 4:40 pm

But what do I mean with 'fatal'? Simple.

You use all your Momentum, you use all your Void Energy. And it might not even work unless you're Sneaking! I've had this mishap cost me three fights (and around 3000 murai total, and one of my subweapons) where I needed to drop to my knees and beg RNG to be fair with me and let me kill that annoying Grindylow before it chonks me for 150 a turn. And it just laughed at me and let me die.

Well... this is the only issue with it. The part where it uses up every ounce of your resources, but only sometimes it kills a monster. Spending every ounce of your resources for a feasible 60% chance, no matter how much Momentum you invest in it? That's not fair.

So! Allow me to ask for a very simple overhaul:

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Uses 3M or All your Momentum.

- Increases the chance to instantly kill the target equal to 10% per additional momentum used beyond 3.
- Base range is equal to 2 [+1 per 10 Void Energy LV you currently have].
- If you used 6+M against non-Monsters, with the instakill% chance: Inflicts Stun, Interference and Lingering Damage (LV = Instakill chance - 20) for 4 rounds.

Additional Animation Request:
- Make it so you zoom towards the enemy like Kinu does when she's using that enhanced Cobra. With a purple blur and all, then Moonlight Burst pops in case of a successful instakill proc.
References: Kinu vs Ashe fight, Moonlight Mercy's instakill effect.
Though! If that's too much.
Uses 3M or All your Momentum.

- Increases the chance to instantly kill the target equal to 10% per additional momentum used beyond 3.
- Base range is equal to 2 [+1 per 10 Void Energy LV you currently have].
Just this is fine. It would have saved my ass in PvE situations.
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Image ~ Dev, 08/16/2016.

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Mr.SmileGod
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Re: Elimi-nahmate [Eliminate is too fatal to use]

Post by Mr.SmileGod » Thu May 21, 2020 11:50 pm

The PVE aspect is whatever, but I'd definitely have to go with option 2. If I got hit with option 1 and lost a full turn, all regen (with possibilities of being decayed by hexer) AND took 80 damage a turn? I'd just close the game.
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Re: Elimi-nahmate [Eliminate is too fatal to use]

Post by WaifuApple » Thu May 21, 2020 11:53 pm

Option two would be much better. We do NOT need all of those other things tacked onto it.
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Re: Elimi-nahmate [Eliminate is too fatal to use]

Post by Snowy Soul » Wed May 27, 2020 8:26 pm

I'm still relatively new, but I do feel like Eliminate does need something extra to make it feel... usable in a pvp situation. It's a cool move, fun to use, and it has a lot of setup needed to make it work. In PvP setup like that should be rewarded, not feel worthless. I don't know what other people have been able to make happen with Eliminate's damage but when that instakill doesn't proc the skill feels... absolutely not worth the investment.

Rather a mess of additional effects, I would like to suggest an additional effect to add on that at least makes the skill feel worth using even if the kill fails or if you're in pvp.
Uses 3M+ as it is now.

- Burns 20-60 Void energy. Void Energy burned translates to % extra damage and % chance to instakill non-player/boss characters
- Increases additional damage by 10%, and instakill chance by 10% for each additional Momentum used
- If Airborne, Add an additional 40% bonus damage/40% instakill chance
- If target is not dead, apply lingering Darkness damage over time = to % extra damage for 5 turns that ignores resist.
This is a finisher skill, it's meant to feel like your target is supposed to die when it's used and requires every single ounce of a void assassins energy build up to use. This also makes a 100% kill chance if you set it up with Vanishing Strike against a non-player non-boss character. And against those characters it makes this skill something worth using to provide extra damage for the energy burned. Using up all that energy at once is dangerous for a Void Assassin, so give some reward for the risk. Some fights they can get all that energy back instantly but against a non-mage that's never gonna happen. Just my two cents, perhaps I'm less experienced with how bad the damage could or what this could do balance wise but I'm still in the camp this skill needs a use against Player and Boss characters... it's frankly too iconic of a skill for Void Assassin to not.

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Re: Elimi-nahmate [Eliminate is too fatal to use]

Post by Mr.SmileGod » Thu May 28, 2020 1:23 am

I get your concerns on the need to build up Void energy on a base level, but you have to realize: You can build that energy with frayed voidgates and get a load if it fairly easily (granted, with some set-up), or... You know. Start the battle with 60. Void energy carries over through battles, meaning you could just turn 2 eliminate someone for an incredible amount of damage, AND what, 140 damage a turn with that? That's more than poison does in most cases, some of which with Menov's Fang involved.
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Re: Elimi-nahmate [Eliminate is too fatal to use]

Post by Snowy Soul » Thu May 28, 2020 4:37 am

140 damage a turn assuming the opponent feels like ending their turn with their back turned to you? Even if it can't be that high, even half of that would be more than enough as I was throwing a set of example numbers out. That's still nothing compared to the burst damage I've seen from other classes.

I've witnessed some of the pvp fights that happen around arena, and I've seen what other classes can do in pve. 1 move that does a large chunk of health at once and over time is nothing compared to what other classes can make happen with far less setup, over the same number of turns... Can I also remind you that it has to be done with a dagger, the weapon type with the lowest overall scaling ability and also in a lot of cases very detrimental scalings depending on the dagger you're using... The list goes on. Please though, if this isn't what you want to see add your own ideas instead on what would be a more preferable change.

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Re: Elimi-nahmate [Eliminate is too fatal to use]

Post by Raigen.Convict » Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:44 pm

Im all for option 1, since Eliminate is a one time only move due to void energy, and to respond to the person saying it's easy to regain void energy... keep in mind, you only gain 3 per round, you require 3 momentum for each void gate, and 3 more for fray, or need to use up 4 momentum to have 2 refunded for using revile fray to go through the gate, you only gain Fray's rank in void energy, meaning five max. And eliminates effectiveness is dictated by your void energy meaning you need max to do anything with daggers, who may I remind you, like the person above stated have very low scaling. typically 100 SWA is a godsend for a dagger. They rely almost solely on crits to get by, which is fine as they more than make up for the low scale in that department. One more thing... Daggers generally are harder to get hit with than swords one reason being the one less weapon part slot but also Void assassin has no buff to hit chance meaning you have to roll with what you get from material, 2 weapon part slots, a talent and stats. You next need to take into account that trying to tank as a void assassin is extensively difficult to do effectively due to the spread of your stats going so thin, you may be able to scrape by with forgoing your strength stat but you'd then still need skill, luck, defense, resistance, vitality, and guile at the minimum meaning void assassins to be effecient are almost stuck as an evade type class meaning the longer you spend setting up and not DPSing is the more time wasted for your opponent to kill you within 2 or 3 turns.
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Re: Elimi-nahmate [Eliminate is too fatal to use]

Post by Mr.SmileGod » Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:59 pm

There are plenty of decent scaling daggers, most of which make non-damage stats into damage stats. Cases like the vorpal fang, with a 70% LUCK scaling, 30% guile scaling. Daggers like the 150% total scaling, 13 base power 10* dagger. 3 different scaling stats, sure, but if you're building for it? The scaling on that would be amazing, ideally up to 150 if you made serious sacrifices. Not the highest in the world, sure, but then we get into the actual effects.

Say you started the battle with 60 void energy. Set up a void gate so you have range, then you start a turn. Void gate to get airborne and sneak (Though while proofreading, I realize airborne wouldn't even be necessary anymore), 6M left. You hit them with this new Eliminate. They're stunned, interfered, and have lingering damage. Assuming that the original poster meant for the momentum clause to be ADDED to what's already there, instead of replacing it, that'd be 130% increased damage on a 160% scaling skill. Looking at, with a 100 SWA dagger, 368 damage. Then, while the target is stunned, they can be hit more without being able to fight back, granted at 50% DR. Lingering damage in this case would be 110. 110 damage A TURN for 4 turns on top of what would likely be an end result of 170 damage (assuming 50% defense, some armor). They'd be out a total of 170 + 440 HP. From one skill, and that's assuming they're tanky and not dodgy. If they're dodgy and the VA goes behind them with the voidgate usage, that's Cobra gone and 30% damage reduction ONLY if they dodge, instead of 50%.

And if the dagger isn't 100 SWA? If it's, say, 125? 368 turns into 460.

Now, that's assuming the OP meant to add these effects, instead of replacing them with their idea. If it's a replacement, then ignore me, though it'd have to have, like... a 5 round cooldown or something, lest it be spammed to no end. (Seeing as I don't see a clause that says it'd remove void energy anymore.)

As far as how I'd change it? Leave out the stun, leave out the lingering damage. Or make the lingering damage a status inflict chance, with 50% of its current suggested value. 55 damage a turn is still very considerable.
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